The Hiring Manager's Perspective

Scott Rutherford Hello and welcome to the AXIOM Insights Learning and Development Podcast. I'm Scott Rutherford. This podcast is focused on the people, processes, content, and techniques that drive performance through learning. I'm excited to bring this conversation to you today. This episode is called The Hiring Manager's Perspective. And I'm joined by three L and D professionals who have agreed to share their thoughts as hiring managers to help both those of you who are recruiting new members of your teams, but also to give real insight that as a candidate you can use when you're seeking a new role. My guests are Dan Collier, Senior Director of Talent and Leadership Development at Suffolk Construction. Tammy Sena, Senior Director of Talent and Client Services at AXIOM Learning Solutions, and Pam Moyer, the Director of Learning and Enablement at Origami Risk. And with that, let's start with Pam. Pam Moyer My name is Pam Moyer and I am the Director of Learning and Enablement at Origami Risk. I have been in the learning field for my entire career, over 25 years at this point. And I have led various teams from instructional design teams all the way up to an entire learning organization with facilitators and admins, and all those fun things. And at Origami Risk. Right now we are building a new learning organization, which is what I'm super excited about and what we're doing together. Scott Rutherford Great. Thanks, Pam. Dan, let me turn to you, and welcome you to the podcast. Dan Collier Sure. Thank you, Scott. So my name is Dan Collier, I am the Senior Director of Talent and leadership development here at Suffolk Construction. It's a role I've been in to almost a year now prior to that, for the previous three years, I've been the head of learning and development here. So across all programs, and prior to that spent time at Fresenius medical care, various other organizations where I have headed up teams in learning and development or leadership development spanning over 30 odd years. Scott Rutherford And I'm in the same boat where -- when I start to do the math, I start to get unhappy. And finally, last but not least to Tammy, you're joining with a somewhat unique perspective here because you both are involved in sourcing candidates, but also recommending candidates. So you are that connector in this process. But let me step back and ask you to introduce yourself. Tammy Sena Sure, my name is Tammy Sena. I'm the Senior Director of Talent Management and Client Services at AXIOM. I've been with the company almost seven years this fall, time flies when you're having fun and learning a lot. My role here is, I wear a few different hats, I'd say I do manage the recruiting team. And I also assist in the sourcing efforts. So if they're finding new candidates, I'm reviewing candidates before they're going over to clients, and also establishing more closely those relationships with the clients. So when you have that instructional design need, you can come to me we can scope your requirement and find that right candidate for your assignment. Scott Rutherford Right. Thanks, Tammy. So let's jump right into the whole notion of the right candidate. So when you're looking for someone, I'm going to pick on instructional design, because that's a big part of what we do. But we can also talk about other roles, but looking at instructional design candidates, what is it you're looking for, when you're when you're trying to fill a role? Dan, do you want to start with that one? Dan Collier Sure. So when we have a need here - and I should also share that, at one point in that career journey, I also did contract staffing for the learning and development space for a few years, so I've kind of been on both sides of the fence. And the experience that I had from there has helped me as an internal really kind of see through some of the challenges you can see on a conventional resume, or people's backgrounds. So what we're really looking for, is experience, is satisfaction from previous clients, is some good examples of creative work that goes across a variety of different challenges. Not necessarily seeing someone who takes the same approach towards a variety of different problems, but really has that creativity to understand what the challenge is and how to bring the right solutions or a few solutions that would be able to fit for the need. Pam Moyer I completely agree. I think one of the things that I would add to it is, you see somebody's resume, and you can see that they're qualified, they have the experience, but for me is really is around that conversation to get what their definition is of training, and when it meets the need, and what learning looks like in 2023. And beyond. I think that's one of my first kind of deciding factors early on is where are they in the decision, at least their own definition of what learning is. Tammy Sena I would just say, from a staffing perspective, I can understand, Dan, now that you've had experience on both sides, because when you have an assignment in the past, your requirements have been very detailed. So it's very easy for us to align the right prospective candidate with your role. Because you know what that contractor is going to be asking for questions about your role and about your organization. So, you know, the more concrete of a requirement that we can get, the more able we are able to get that right match and the right fit for your assignment. Scott Rutherford Pam, you used a phrase that I want to follow up on for a second, because you use the phrase of sort of how they defined training and what training is. So what do you mean by that? How have you seen people define training differently? Pam Moyer Yeah, I think, based on my experience, the non-learning people think training is something else than it really is. Right? So for me, the way that I define it is training is passive, in something that you receive. So a presentation, one way knowledge transfer. And I really think of learning as something that you do. So learning is interactive and engaged and maybe uncomfortable for the learner. And that's really what we're looking for in our organization of the type of learning that we are building. It is much less of the lectures of the past and the hundred PowerPoint slides, and much more of flipping it around and self discovery and self exploration and really building that confidence for the learner. Scott Rutherford So when you're looking at someone's portfolio, how does that come to life for you? How can you tell when you're looking at materials, I mean, I think you referenced having a diversity of approaches, but how what shines when you're looking at materials? Pam Moyer For me, it really is that creativity, as you mentioned, and the interactive so -- it's the interactivity, which is much more than just pressing Next slide, or clicking to continue, it really is getting some information, processing that information and then doing something with it. So for my work products that I would be looking at, I'm looking for that, here's some information, here's a way that you can apply this knowledge and do something with it before you move on to the next topic. And then of course, modern, right, so it's not 45 minutes long, it's more on the micro learning, it's more digestible. So that's really what I'm looking for in the samples that I look at. Scott Rutherford Dan, what about you? Dan Collier I would say similar. It's, you know, what are they building and designing that's engaging? And how much time is going through the learner seat time between those engagements, right, so we want to make sure that there are things they need to interact with on a regular basis, so it doesn't become too passive for them. The other thing that I think might be unique in our approach is, I think, we don't look for someone that has just one type of an experience background in an industry. Like we're a construction firm, we don't necessarily look for people who have done a lot of work for construction firms, but rather the opposite. We want people who have worked in a variety of industries, and I've had a lot of challenges across them, so that we can kind of see how do they adapt? How curious are they about learning the industry they're coming to work for, so that they can really stay engaged themselves. Scott Rutherford And that's sort of a philosophical approach to have the hire anyway, because you know, when you look for someone who's coming in from a different industry, part of the benefit, at least, I'm just speaking for myself as being a hiring manager, when you bring someone in from an adjacent or a totally different industry, they have a different perspective and a different type of experience. And you can avoid having a sort of a siloed mentality in your team. Tammy Sena Well, I know that we we come across, we definitely want to provide an instructional designer that has that breadth of experience. So different industries, different types of learning. But we see all types of folks that are looking at contract work. So it could be you know, folks that have been doing it for years. It could be folks that may have been recently laid off for a full time job, they've been permanent all their life. Now they're looking at contract or it's the flipping industries entirely. And we see a lot of that, Higher Ed, pool of people that are really wanting to transition more into corporate learning. So from a staffing perspective, it's really diving into, even if the industry is slightly different, what are those transferable skills that my client is looking for, that you're bringing to the table, that we can really bring to light, you know, with the submittal, to give some commonalities to what they've done in the past and what they might be able to bring to you in the future. Pam Moyer I think Dan said it earlier with just somebody who is persistently curious, and wants to learn new things, and really is motivated by learning a new industry or a new topic. Because as a, as an instructional designer, as you said, it's easier to come in without preconceived notions or knowledge. Well, not easier, but better in the learning world. So that then you can really translate to the, you know, the entry level person that you're trying to transfer information, I think as being a lifelong learner, or being in the learning field, that's where that can, consistent curiosity comes from wanting to always learn new things and being curious. Scott Rutherford So when you're looking at a candidate who's coming in from an adjacent field, higher ed, we've seen a fair number of people trying to move into the K 12 education into corporate learning and development. Getting back to sort of the transposition of work sample, as an example, how important then, is it, or how should the candidate approach taking something in their portfolio that they've developed for a middle school classroom, as an example, and bringing that forward as an example of their thinking and thought process to corporate learning and development? Have you seen that? And how? Or how would you ask them to help you understand the work? Pam Moyer I think for me, in that instance, it is the story behind it. Right? So how did this come to be? Because every learning that we're putting together always has constraints and requirements and things you can and can't do? Which same thing in a middle school thing? So it'd be kind of like taking me back to the beginning of how did this come to be? Was it just something that you know, a problem that you were trying to solve or knowledge that you have to try to transfer? So it would really be having the person be able to explain to me how this product came to life rather than just taking it on its own? Scott Rutherford Yeah. Which gets back a little bit to Dan, you're talking about defining the spec? Dan Collier Yeah, yeah. And I think what I would add to what Pam is sharing is, I may be a little more rigorous around some conventional instructional design practices. And I want to see that in the work. I've been around long enough to have experienced where, where technology around authoring tools has allowed people who have come in without the instructional design, background and knowledge and experience to come in and kind of build training programs. more from a from a technology side than from a an ID side. And you can see that when you start to go through. And that's been one of my, kind of, things that I watch for, especially with people transitioning out of academia, is not having the kind of the core adult learning theory and the instructional design principles that you're looking for, for really solid program development. Scott Rutherford Going down the path on technologies for a minute, though, I think that's something I'd love to get your thoughts on. Because I think as we all know, there are a few big names in in the instructional design world. And there's hundreds if not thousands of others. So if you're looking at a candidate, and you're trying to you're saying okay, well do you know, Articulate? Does a candidate who is technology savvy on another tool, and knows the adult learning theory have a chance at a role where you've named the tool and it's not something they've used before? I don't want to say which skills are more important. But is it easier to learn the tech or to learn the theory? And which do you think is more important? Dan Collier In my opinion, it is easier to learn the tech than it is the theory. And that's just been my experience. And at the same time, you have to know that there are some industry norms or expected that there is some core technology that most people should have under their belt and Articulate will be one of those. And none of us I don't think are looking for a one trick pony. So what we want to see in a portfolio is using the right tool for the right solution to give the right learner experience. And so when I'm looking through I want to see I want to see videos in Vyond, or some other work in Camtasia, in concert with Articulate and able to, to bring tools together to get the overall experience? Pam Moyer I completely agree with that, Dan, it's about the right thing at the right time. And just because you can do something in a software, it doesn't mean you should! It can be distracting. Scott Rutherford If someone brings you a solution using a technology you haven't seen before. That sounds like it could be a good thing. Dan Collier Yes, absolutely. Scott Rutherford So with that said, Tammy, how do you manage the hundreds, if not thousands of possible technologies and tools? How do you get your arms around what tools a candidate has used? Tammy Sena Well, obviously, we want to have as varied of a network as possible. And aside from the tool expertise, I mean, if Dan or Pam are coming to me, looking for a contractor, and they say the learning is going to be built in Storyline, Articulate Storyline, I wouldn't, we would never submit anybody that did not have experience with that tool. I mean, it wouldn't get by me to go to them. Scott Rutherford Just sort of chasing the hypothetical. So if you have candidate who has Articulate Storyline experience, obviously, that's a matched with the requirement, you're gonna pass that along. What if you have someone who's really, really strong in everything else? Would you go back to the candidate and say, Hey, by the way, maybe you want to get on LinkedIn Learning and go do a self study and in bone up on this particular tool? Tammy Sena Absolutely. I mean, especially those folks that are trying to transition in from, say, K through 12, they might, they may have a learning background, that is a different audience than what our clients are typically training for. But there are certain tools, to Dan's point, that most instructional designers will have some experience in. So it's, you know, seeing if they can download some free trials of different software, and creating samples of things. I mean, during the pandemic, clients, were saying, have them put something together as easy as how to wash your hands appropriately. It doesn't have to be, you know, this real learning initiative, it's a matter of presenting to the client, how creative you can be, how and how much functionality within each of the software you're able to utilize, because some of them have lots of bells and whistles, but maybe, you know, some designers only know the entry level package. But there's a lot of back end cool things you can do. That's really what our job here is at AXIOM, we want to match the right contractor to the right opportunity. But on the flip side, when I'm speaking with new people from a talent perspective, we want to make sure that we're presenting them opportunities about things they're passionate about. So from an instructional design perspective, you might have somebody that's really passionate about the designs, the design aspect, and kind of putting that vision together, and then passing it along to someone that has more expertise with the tool and actually building it. So we really need to hone in on what's the passion, what really drives their creativity along that process. And then again, aligning that particular function or need, with the client's request. Scott Rutherford Seems to me that what we're talking about is sort of a little bit of storytelling. For the for the candidate to say, well, you know, here's the situation that this, this task came to me in this in this at this company, here's the context, here were the business pressures. Here are the drivers of the request. Here's how we acted upon it and scoped it, here's how I created the solution. And here's what happened, you know, which is a storytelling arc. And, frankly, this is something that is not just an instructional design piece of advice. I've heard this, and used this, to some degree in my own career. Whenever you're going to an interview in a position you want to help people understand the decisions you made on the work you're presenting in the context of the context it was created, right? Pam Moyer Yes. That's why I had met her kind of story behind it of how did you get here? Because, again, in some of those questions, how did you come up with your learning objectives? How did you come up with your performance outcomes? And that's really where to Dan's point, you can tell if it's, well, somebody just gave this to me and told me to build it, or did I really do that analysis upfront with a SME (subject matter expert) trying to find out what we were, that's where you get into the products and the solutions can speak for themselves, but you do need to understand the story behind it. Dan Collier And it can also be very helpful to get them to tell you some stories about projects that they really didn't enjoy. Ones that didn't work out well. What is that I always try to get candidates to give me some of their horror stories of clients or particular projects or particular solutions that didn't work out the way they had expected? And what did they learn from that? Scott Rutherford Yeah, that can be very, very enlightening. Pam Moyer Yeah, I think the other thing I'll add to kind of back to your question about if somebody didn't already know, the tech stack, or the tools that you had, I think for me, when I'm looking for a contractor, it's to supplement my existing team. So I'm not really looking to upskill a contractor, I need them to come in and upskill us. But from an FTE perspective, like a full time employee, if I had somebody from a career path perspective that wanted to, you know, migrate into learning, or at least even, you know, rotate around and try it, I would be willing to, to invest in that person to teach them these tools. Like for example, somebody came from graphic artists, and they were, you know, I don't know an expert in Photoshop, well, that's transferable too, and we use that or they've done Vyond on the side or something, we can incorporate that as well. So I'd be more willing to invest in an employee candidates. And maybe it's a contractor that I'm supplementing to help me train the employee that I have, right. Dan Collier And another point about investing than Pam, I'll build up off what you're saying is not that it's always a requirement for us. Often, it's a red flag, if the contractor doesn't have licensure for any of the tools, it makes me a little concerned about how committed they are to actually doing that job and being a contractor. And so I will be looking for things, you know, given the right person, and in some instances, we have been able to provide them what they didn't have, because there was enough of something else that convinced me they were committed to the role. But a contractor coming in that doesn't have any of their own licenses in any of the software will always be a red flag for me. Scott Rutherford Less so with a an FTE hire, I would imagine. But there, though, there is some expectation, I think in any, any field that, you know, if you've been in the field for five or ten years, which is a typical level of experience that we deal with, you will have picked up some of the tools on your own over time. That's sort of the that's sort of the normal expectation, right? Pam Moyer Yeah, I think to that point, Dan, just because I maybe did use Articulate once, four years ago, there's been a lot of changes to it, right, enhancements. So if you don't have your own, and you're not staying up to date on the new technology or even new integrations, then that definitely is a red flag of how serious you are. Scott Rutherford So thinking about other I know, we've been focused a little bit on instructional designers, but they're not the only people on the team. So I wanted to broaden the conversation a little bit and think about other roles that you're hiring, whether LMS administrators or learning strategists or similar roles. Is the advice different? And how is it different for other roles? Because -- instructional designers have the advantage, to use that word, of having a portfolio they they've developed materials, and they can come in and show you. Other roles might not be able to do that the same way. So how, how would you advise someone coming in for a different role to approach the application and to show off their best side? Tammy Sena Just from a staffing perspective, Scott, I mean, it is different because there's nothing really tangible to look at to say, Okay, I helped strategize on this project. And this was the outcome. It's more, it's more conversational. It's more, so tell me about your projects, you know, what was what was the business goal? Who, who was part of your team? You know, really digging into the details and, and how that strategy came about to propose the solution that was implemented. It's more discussion based, it's more sometimes looking to see who this person might be connected to, that we've done work with in the past. We love to speak with our known network of people to get some feedback. A lot of it's a very close-knit community. A lot of these people have worked with each other before. So it's great to hear from somebody that you've been successful, "Yes, you know, Pam was the strategist on this project, and she led the team it was successful." So referrals and looking at your network to see if anyone's collaborated with them. But really having those deep conversations about will really tell me about that project and what did you do specifically to assist in that strategy, you know, point of the project. Pam Moyer And one place where I've taken that further is then if they're coming to me as just, you know, the content developer, so I was just given this. So then I'll ask, well, if you were the instructional designer, what would be different? Or what were some things that you might do differently, or might strategize differently, or even some instances where they have influenced the designer of you know what, maybe we should do this by collaborating and having that conversation. So that always goes a long way too. Dan Collier Yeah, in addition to all of that, which I completely agree with, I'll often look for their overall learning industry familiarity. You know, especially if they're coming from an LMS background, I want to know how much they know about the whole variety of LMSes out there, and what some of the advantages and disadvantages are in each. If they're coming in as a program manager, I want to know what kind of practices or tech tools they're using to manage programs, I look for what associations they're affiliated with, are they joining ATD? Are they joining Training Industry? Are they familiar with this as an industry? And are they able to come in and really kind of know what's available to help make them successful in their contract with me? Scott Rutherford So what you're looking for them as you're talking to them is you're trying to get a sense of how their problem-solving, I hesitate to use the words "soft skills," but to get a sense of how they would interact with other members of your team, you're assessing? How do they think how do they behave? And how do they fit? Tammy Sena Yeah, absolutely. And Scott, I'll say, in working with Pam and Dan, both over the past seven years, they they've both had part of their teams in on the interview process. So they are getting their folks that are working with them day in and day out as part of that interview process, which I think is fantastic. It's not just the hiring manager that's going to be working with that teammate or that contractor for six months as a whole team. So I like that approach. And everyone kind of getting their own angle and able to ask, you know, the questions that are important to them, on what they'd be looking for in someone joining their team. So I think that's always been very beneficial as well. Scott Rutherford It makes a lot of sense, because the different members of the team, A- would each have their own perspective, you look at the candidate differently. But B- as a manager, involving members of your team. It's, it's delegation of authority and agency, which is my mind, never a bad thing. As we as we think about the topic, and I want to sort of wrap up on this last point, which is, and again, thinking of this in terms of giving advice to candidates, people who are coming into the field or looking for looking for the next opportunity. From the candidates you've worked with in the teens you've led. What do you wish candidates did more of, or maybe took more time to learn? Before they came knocking on the door? Dan, do you want to start off on that one? Dan Collier I don't know, necessarily, Scott, if it's take time to learn, what I really look for, is for candidates, to be honest, to be transparent, to describe the kind of work they don't want to do, to describe what's going on in their life that could cause limitations. Because all of those are the things you're going to find out in the first few weeks of working together anyway. And I prefer to know where they fit on all of those things. It's part of the reason why the entire team here is part of the interview process. We were actually very strategic about how we do that. Everyone has their own group of questions they're going to ask from their own perspectives, so that we can kind of weed out some of those concerns that are that are there. And then you know, really kind of find out what makes you joyful? What really do you want to be part of here? What's kind of the work that's most challenging? What haven't you had an opportunity to do that you think Suffolk could offer you? And then you know, that's really where the conversation wants to go is to find out who's going to be that fit? You're not going to bat a thousand, right? You're not going to, not everyone that you bring on is going to be what you hoped they were going to be but taking that time to get to know the candidate, yes for their skills and their experience and their and their creativity in their talent, and also, who they are and what are the other things going on in their life. Really help round out that opportunity for success on both sides. Pam Moyer For me, it's also the business impact and the return on investment, right? So, all too often I've interacted with instructional designer that has mad skills, right and could do an amazing, amazing tech. But we don't have the time nor the budget to do that. So we have to cut those corners. And sometimes that can be a little deflating to somebody who's super creative. So I think it's that balance of understanding, the return on investment of our own time, the shelf life of what it is that we're building, is it worth, you know, a lot of time and money? Or is it something that's only going to live for six months anyways? So that sort of understanding that we are on the business side, right, we're here to enable the business. And that's sometimes a hard, hard balance for us. Scott Rutherford Yeah. And I think, Pam and Dan, you both already mentioned, a facet of what I would frame as sort of difficult feedback. Whether it's, whether it's pushing back on the scope and saying, This is not what we need, saying no, in a way, or then having someone come into an interview and say, you know, I, I can do that work, but I don't really enjoy it. It's going to be difficult for the candidate to have the comfort level and trust it to make those sorts of statements. Right? How do you how do you build that in the in the interview conversations, saying this won't be held against you, if you're honest. Dan Collier Honestly, it it's through modeling that kind of honesty. So you know, I will, I'll tell them there is absolutely work that I don't enjoy doing that I understand is part of the job. What I try to do is be forthright about it and say, Okay, I can I can weather it for, you know, whatever it takes to get through this. And knowing that there's more challenging or interesting work behind that is always helpful. So I really do encourage them. Now not everybody is going to feel comfortable enough as you said, Scott, but I try to model that for them in that in that opportunity. Scott Rutherford My thanks again to Pam Moyer, Tammy Sena and Dan Collier. If you'd like to connect with Pam, Dan, Tammy or me, I have links to each of our LinkedIn profiles on the episode page at axiomlearningsolutions.com/podcast. And if you're looking to expand your skills as an L&D professional, one of the many resources available to you is a resources list on the AXIOM website. It's under AXIOM insights, but you can also find a link to that resources list on the podcast episode page. This podcast is a production of AXIOM Learning Solutions. AXIOM is a learning services company providing learning professionals with the people and resources needed to accomplish virtually any learning project, including staff augmentation from our network of thousands of vetted professionals, and also project support for learning projects of any type, including content updates, and new content creation. To learn more about AXIOM or to discuss your learning project, contact us at axiomlearningsolutions.com. And thanks again for listening to the AXIOM Insights Podcast.