Transforming Culture with a Focus on Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging

Scott Rutherford Hello and welcome to the AXIOM Insights Learning and Development Podcast. I'm Scott Rutherford. This podcast series focuses on the people, processes, content and techniques that drive organizational performance through learning. This episode focuses on diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, or DEIB. And I'd like to talk about just one facet of that for a minute. Why are we talking about Belonging in the workplace on a podcast that focuses on driving performance through learning? And the answer is very simply that there is a relationship between belonging and organizational performance. And we can point to studies which have helped us quantify what that value is. For example, I'm looking at a Harvard Business Review article, “The Value of Belonging at Work,” which cites research finding workplaces with higher workplace belonging showed what they call, “a whopping 56% increase” in job performance, a 50% drop in turnover risk, and a 75% reduction in sick days. And I'll link to that study on the episode page at axiomlearningsolutions.com/podcast. But with that context, I'd like to jump into the episode. And I'm fortunate to be joined by an expert on these topics Ken De Loreto. Ken is a learning consultant with more than 30 years experience working with businesses across multiple industries, and in our conversation we’ll focus on Ken’s expertise in helping organizations manage culture and belonging, which as I said to Ken, culture, and belonging seems to be a point of connection — or a point of inflection, depending — when issues around diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging intersect in workplace. Ken De Loreto You know, it's interesting, when we first started putting together the, I guess what we can call a curriculum that we have, we knew that approaching it from a place of diversity first was going to potentially be triggering for people. And there's enough out there to say that that is true. What we found is that the better place to start is from a perspective of belonging, we all each of us, as individuals can connect to it. We all have moments where we feel that we are accepted for who we are, we have our group, our people, and we belong. And we've all felt what it's like when we don't. What's interesting is a lot of us haven't ever thought of that as a goal in business, that that's something that I need to have in my organization, we may understand that in our family or friend group. But a lot of people have never really expected that belonging is something that should be experienced at work. And yet, the data just shows that when it's their productivity is higher, there's lower turnover, people take fewer sick days. And yet, as we each reflect on our careers, we can probably pinpoint a few times where we felt like we were working with the team on work that we love, where we were truly accepted for who we are, and did not have to, in some way conform and change, whether that's from some explicit message that we have to change. And I've worked with clients where that is the case, where there people have been told that they have to look and sound a certain way to represent their organization. Now that may sound like great clarity, but it also starts to erode someone's confidence. And then we can all probably pinpoint moments where we did feel that us being us, was uniquely valued by the people in the organization with whom we work. Scott Rutherford Yeah, and I think if you've been in the workforce for a few years, you've, most people will have come across those moments where you just feel like and if you're, I think you're fortunate to have it, to say that, okay, it clicks, the people I'm with, they get me I feel understood. I feel confident in being who I am, and not guarded in. It's a moment where things clicking and I look back at my own career. And I can think of a few examples of teams that I've been fortunate to work with where that happened. And I don't know at that time, whether I had the terms of the vocabulary to quantify to explain what was going on. It just felt good. Ken De Loreto Yeah, it and I think there's something interesting about giving people the language, to understand it, because they can make it more present. They can be more aware of it. And they can make it more available to others. So belonging and we approach it this way in the curriculum, we approach it from two perspectives. There's let's understand belonging and the importance of it in an organization and how you can help others to feel a sense of belonging. Then there's a flip of it, a different course, which focuses on how do we get you to develop your own sense of belonging, your own sense of psychological safety? How Do you make it more present for yourself. And it's belonging is a very unique individual thing. What it means for you, Scott is perhaps going to be very different from what it means for me, we have different experiences different history, we were raised in different ways in different places. And that results in us defining it differently. So there is no one size fits all to this thing called belonging, which makes it difficult. So it's part of why we wanted to put it in the hands of each of us as an individual, here's what you can do for yourself, because your organization is only ever going to be able to take it so far, they're not going to be able to individualize it in the way that it needs to be. That's up to you. Scott Rutherford But at the same time, what we're trying to do here through some of these, through the curriculum, is teach people and teach organizations how you can structure to enable belonging, which implies that you have to accommodate that diversity of experience, you have to - as you say, everyone's sense of what it is to be to be a fit is going to be slightly different. The organization of course, has to put the umbrella. Ken De Loreto Yeah, yeah. And I love that that language are used of enabling belonging. So often, it's simply getting out of the way. And watching and making sure that some of those micro messages aren't being sent or micro aggressions aren't being demonstrated, where we are telling people subtly, you can't just be yourself here if you're to represent our brand. And while I've worked with organizations where those words have not come out of their mouths, the messages are received a loud and clear from their people that that is true. That me showing up as I am, I was working with one organization, a major financial services and investment firm that many of us know. And I was working with their facilitators to help them to these are career facilitators, they are internal, they are the ones who train people in this organization to be the best they can be in every possible content area. And what they had received these facilitators who are standing up in front of audiences within this organization every day, what they have received as a message is that you as you aren't good enough to stand in front of our people, you have to look this way, sound that way. And they would put on this armor to represent the brand effectively, internally, and he got heavy. Generally did it get heavy it got in the way of them actually bringing life to the content to the work that they were doing. Scott Rutherford There was a study that I read in a marketing journal not very long ago. And I wish I I'll see if I can remember the citation and put it in the Episode notes here. Because I don't have it off top my head. But the upshot of the of the study was it was it was correlating authenticity to brand loyalty. And what it did is draw a bright line to say that in the minds of consumers, people are making purchase choices about the brands they engage with and where they spend their money. They equated authenticity with brand loyalty. And as we're talking about, you know, the notion of putting on armor to represent a brand that isn't you. That's dissonant, isn't it? Ken De Loreto Oh, it's so dissonant. And yet it is sadly so common. It is sadly so I had this as a an anecdote that just popped into my head, but it struck me. I was working with another financial services firm. I was teaching their leaders how to lead. And I'm working with their senior leaders. So these are not welcome to the firm people. They had been there for years. I finished what was a three day course. And I'm now cleaning up most people had left the room. And there are a few participants still lingering. And finally, there's only one and he walks up to me and he says, that was really great. So glad you enjoyed it. What did you get from it? And he gave me some of his key points. Then he pointed at my shirt. And he said, I like your shirt. I said thank you. He said I could never wear a shirt like that here. Now he was not unlike and I know folks who don't have the visual But Scott's wearing a gingham shirt right now it was a purple gingham shirt. So nothing outlandish. And I said thank you. And he said to end your pants. Now it's getting a little weird for me, but I'm like I'm going with it. There's a line here somewhere. But I'm going with it. You know we'd spent three days together. He's like in your pants. I said, Yep. He said what do you call those and I'm thinking flat front pants. He said, Yeah, he said, I wish I could wear those. And I noticed that he was wearing pleated pants and every man in the firm were white shirts or pale blue if they were feeling bold and pleated pants. Now, this was only a few years ago, flat front pants had been around for a while. But the fact of the matter was that he felt that in order for him to be seen as credible, and a value, it not only meant he had to act in certain ways, it meant he had to dress in certain ways. Even though I think pleated pants went out in the early 2000s. At latest, I think you're being generous. But sure, yeah, I'm trying to be nice here. But that is that is the experience a lot of people have. And as a result, this thought of belonging is so far away from them. And we're not talking about when we go to authenticity. A lot of people think that it's about bringing your full authentic self to work. But look, there are guardrails, there are certain values within an organization that have to be met, there are certain professional standards that have to be met. So it's a balance, and there is a tension between those, how do I bring the best of myself and the most of myself, while still appearing, appropriate to the work and the organization that I'm in. Scott Rutherford Right, and that definition of what's appropriate, and what's professional, opens up sort of a Pandora's box here, because it's not, of course, the clothing is part of it, of course, sure. But it’s – you start to talk about (other things like) hairstyles, and the notion of what's appropriate, and what's viewed as professional, and how, well, “judgy” organizations can be, “judgy” and discriminatory how they can be about about what is professional, you start to get into some very charged waters, when you're defining what professional looks like Ken De Loreto You do, and then you start to get into, which is a really dangerous place. Employees comparing themselves to others. So here I am, I have conformed, I have done everything I need to do to fit into this organization. And now I see you come in and not following the same rules. And being your authentic self when I've already had to conform, to fit in and be successful, and it creates tension. So there's a there's a lot, it is a charge to use the word charged, it's charged. And this is part of what we try to tackle, you know, part of the way in which we've designed is we want the learning to not be triggering, but we do want it to get to a place where we're having the real conversations that need to be happening. And then to provide people with the tools and tactics to be able to manage those situations more effectively. Scott Rutherford And I know one of the workshops that you facilitate is specifically on unconscious bias. And that moves on from I think it's fascinating, because I think you're right, there's a facet of it, which can be resentment, we have folks who have said, well, I had to do this, I had to wear, you know, the right suit and the right pants and show up the right way and use the right language for the past 20 years. And you know, how dare you new person not have to conform in the way that I did? Yeah, I think that's a really interesting scenario. But then there's also but that's almost the conscious side of it, then you have the unconscious side of it, which is the discomfort with folks who might just not share your lived experience or might not feel like the folks that you might have known and that whole How do you bring people along through a conversation that is inherently uncomfortable like that? Ken De Loreto Well, and it's uncomfortable, because if not treated well, it sounds like you're saying, when you start to get into the topic of unconscious bias, it sounds like you're saying you're a racist. And that's not what it is. It's, it's why we approach it from a neuroscience perspective in that in that particular course, we want people to understand that this is simply the wiring of all of our brains, that all of our brains are wired, to be discerning to be group oriented, to feel safety with those who are like, and to feel unsafe with those who are not alike. You know, that's a survival wiring. If I fit into my group, and I'm on the inside of the group. That means I have access to resources. It means I have food, I have shelter, I have things that just primally your brain is wired to want. And that has not changed. You know, just because we are now in work environments and not in the wild, does not mean that our brains have yet rewired to that subtlety of the office place. and all of us know that all of us felt that primal urge pop up when, for example, you're in a meeting and someone shoots down your what you think is a brilliant idea, and it feels like an attack, it's not an attack, there's no knife, there's no spear. But our brain sees it that way. And once we can recognize that it helps us to just notice part of what's happening for us. And this is not a, this is not about race alone, or we're not saying all of you cisgender white males are bad. That is not what we're saying here because and I had to get my head around this in the in the design of it, that even for those who are seeking to have the most privileged, the cisgender, white male, that they are still put in a box, there's still a code of conduct. For example, don't show emotion, don't break down, Don't be weak, have a deep voice take charge. Those are still that's still armor that we're asking them to put on. So it's all of us, all of us have in some way felt some marginalization some more, some more systemically, society is better to sum I was in a workshop years ago, focusing on Diversity and Inclusion. And I was put into a breakout group activity. And in my breakout group, there were four of us, there were two black women and one white woman, all three identified as heterosexual. So there I am a white male, I identify as homosexual. And we're in this activity talking about sources of power, the traditional sources of power that society grants for example, are you white? Yes or no? Are you a man? Yes or no? Are you Christian? Yes or no? Are you straight? Yes or no. So we get to me and talking about where my sources of power come from. And I felt something really fascinating happened. It's just how it came out of me. And they called me on it in the most brilliantly subtle and impactful way. I said, Well, you know, yeah, I'm, I'm white, and I'm a man. But but but I've never really identified as a man because I'm gay. And they just all looked at me on camera and said, Uh huh. And in that moment, I realized that there was a place of privilege that I had that I was ignoring, which meant I was not using it well, to lift up, for example, marginalized voices, or help others be seen and heard, in conversations at work, because I was shunning that I even had that. And this is part of where people, they get uncomfortable with this conversation of power and unconscious bias, because it feels like you're telling them that they are racist. That is not what we're saying. We're saying that depending upon your context, and your setting, if you're on the inside, in that setting, you have the opportunity to help those on the outside be heard. And it's a chance for us to use that. Scott Rutherford And that requires a lot of real honest introspection, though, doesn't it? Because you have to realize, okay, well, there are certain things that others looking at me will see down or see, you know, my, my gender presentation, and my, you know, ethnicity and all of these things, of course, other facets that you don't see. And that could be hidden disability, that could be a whole variety of things. Everything from someone who struggles with depression of a war, somebody that just had an argument with their kids that morning, the what people carry inside is what you can't see and to be able to have a connection and to relate to another you have to be understanding of those facets and, and allow them to exist and allow space for them to exist. Ken De Loreto Yeah, yeah. And it's uncomfortable for a lot of people you know, people think, you know, I'm not a therapist, and work is not a place for emotions. Well, good luck with that the only way to keep emotions out of the workplace is to leave people out of the workplace we are by nature, emotional beings, and, and then you add on top of it, this contradiction or this tension between the fact that the brain is wired for unconscious bias, and at the same time, from a human perspective, from a social perspective, we have an immense need for belonging. So you've got these two things in, in, in conflict, we all want to belong and be accepted for who we are, versus just fitting in. There's a difference you know, fitting in is I've adapted myself, so that you you now value me, but belonging is you see me for who I am in all of that uniqueness and all of that, you know, magic and dysfunction, and you appreciate it. And then on the other side, the brain is wired to exclude the brain is wired to see diff Prince's and say, like me, not like me, and if not like me bad. And this, again is survival wiring. So those things are in conflict. Scott Rutherford Yeah. So you alluded a second ago about being conscious of your own privilege can use the word and to use that in a way that supports those around you, which is, to me that's ally ship. And I know again, that's something that you do delve into over the course of a couple hours with folks. How do you – how do you teach someone how to be an ally? Ken De Loreto So we start with the conversation that we've been having here about privilege and power insiders, outsiders and the recognition that again, all of us can be insiders or outsiders, for example, if if I walk into a team meeting with people with whom I've never worked, even though we're in the same organization, I am, all of a sudden, an outsider, they're talking about conversations that had in the past, maybe there are private jokes, they're talking about things that they're all in the know on, and I'm immediately an outsider, if they come to my team meeting, they are immediately on the outside of that. So it's contextual. So we help people understand this is not something that you own for good, it's something that depending upon your context, is there or not. So at any point, even those of you who often find yourself in a position of privilege, and as an insider, you will be in a situation or context where you will be the outsider. So therefore, it's good for you to know about this, because you're gonna need ally ship at some point. So we try to level the playing field. And then to help people understand that ally ship is, you know, it's a verb, it's something you do. And it's, it's, there's no one size fits all again. So this is about asking what support someone may want. It's not assuming what that should be. Sometimes it may just be empathy. And sometimes it may be lifting someone's voice in a meeting, you know, let's stop here, I realized that, that Sheila has been trying to get some words in and she hasn't been heard yet, can we just take a moment and hear what that is. And it's an action so we can depend on it. And this is not about. And we present it as a continuum. It's not about standing up like normal Ray on a table and holding up the sign union. It's it for some, it's about advocacy, and really trying to change the organizations and its policies. And for some, it's simply about those small moments in a meeting, or a conversation, that can really make a difference. And those small, those small moments, they have a ripple effect. So it's looking having people recognize that at any point, you can be in that position of power. No matter your color, your age, your gender identity, depending upon where you are, contextually, you may have some of that power, and power. If it makes you uncomfortable powers like electricity, let's just call it a fact. It just is. Power itself is not good or bad. It's what you do with it, I often use the metaphor of a fork, I'm Sicilian, in my family, the dinner table can get quite animated. So a fork, well, most of us can use it to eat in a Sicilian dinner table at dinner party, it could if you get aggravated, be used to just poke the person next to you. So that fork is not good or bad. It's the intent behind it and how it's being used. And the same is true of privilege and power, it's not good or bad. It just is like electricity or a fork. And to not recognize that it has an impact and can have an impact and that you have it in your hand means that you could cause more harm than good. Scott Rutherford I like the distinction you make between being an ally as a noun versus being an ally as a verb, and saying that, you know, Allyship, to be an ally, is what you do. And I think that's very simple. It does sort of de complicate it, too. I don't need to necessarily perhaps need to be the crusader on the table with the placard. I can be the person in the meeting who is listening to those around me and saying yes, well, let's go back to that point and making sure that others’ voices are heard. Ken De Loreto A lot of what we're teaching people are sort of more subtle, elegant, and tactical approaches to situations. It's not about, you know, being militant or standing up on a table and pounding your fists. That that is what some people want and what certain situations may demand but for the day to day, there's a lot that can happen with small, elegant, graceful movement. You know, I'm in a meeting and I'm tracking that really it's all the senior people who are sharing ideas and Those who are more junior or newer to the organization aren't and I simply just do a respectful pause and call it and you know, folks, what I've noticed a lot of us who've been around for a while are sharing our perspectives right now, I'd love to hear from some of the folks who are newer as to what you've seen on the outside, that may be of value for us to hear. So can we go around the table and just open the conversation up a bit more? And noticing those moments and doing something. You know, a lot of people think an ally is, I've got Black friends, or I've got gay friends that great, that's wonderful. You know, but what are we doing in moments where we have the power and privilege to open that up to others and create some increased inclusion. Scott Rutherford Right. It’s a responsibility. There's a there's a facet of responsibility there. Ken De Loreto Yeah. And within that lie, better ideas and better problem solving, and in different perspective, all the things we know to be true about diversity, that, that we still need help to make happen. Because whether we like it or not, the brain is wired for “birds of a feather flock together.” You know, clichés are clichés for a reason, because they've been proven to be true over time. And this is one of those ones that we have to manage. If we're to create belonging, it means we're going to be flying with birds of unusual feathers. And that's, that's not natural for the brain. But we can make that connection and start to notice when it's happening, we can make different choices. Scott Rutherford So one of the reasons of course, that this is – of course, it's important. I think there's a moral facet to why this is important. Sure, given I think there's a practical facet to it as well. And that's the facet that I think when you know, you and I and colleagues in learning and development, folks who are responsible for building a better organization, look at these topics, it's through the lens of well, how does this help my team operate more effectively? How does this help my company attract better talent? How does this help my company retain the top people. And, you know, when we when we talk about the you know, the being able to be your authentic self in the workplace, being able to be valued, being able to be one of the in-crowd at whatever crowd that is, when you're when you're at work. And I'll give credit to those who are younger than I am. I'm middle aged, and I've been in the workplace for three decades plus. My expectation when I was in my early 20s going into a workplace was not that it was going to necessarily suit me. I was on the other side, as you described before: put on the right suit, wear the right tie, and stop making so inappropriate jokes. Yeah. difficult lesson to learn. But early your career now have I think there's a confidence that I see which I which I, which I love, that they're their expectations are so much higher. And it's it becomes the responsibility then of those of us who are maybe a little bit more senior, maybe helping to help him to steer the organization in a direction for growth? How do we embrace that and let that become part of the culture? Ken De Loreto It's, you know, it's such an interesting point, Scott, because just for those who are listening right now, you and I are contemporaries of each other. And for those of us in that sort of generation, we have adapted to be successful in work, we have changed how we dressed, how we appeared, to be seen as more acceptable, more valuable. And now we see people not wanting to do that, and that kind of irks me, if I approach it from that perspective, who the heck do you think you are? You have to earn the right. And that's what I did. But – Scott Rutherford We can just say, you know, it never had to be that way. And that's the aha moment. Ken De Loreto Right! So to reflect on what that felt like, for us, yes, we did it because we didn't know any better and we had to and the times they are a change in this was you know, it didn't have to be that way. I had a a mentor years ago. And I had learned, you know, it was the 80s and you adapt and it's Boston and there's a very sort of – in banking, where I was a very sort of narrow breadth that a man can be in in terms of work at back then. And I was different in some ways. I will do my darndest to conform, my darndest, you know go into Brooks Brothers and buying the red tie in the white shirt. But there was still something inside of me And she said to me, she said, You're not like everyone else. And that's the last thing you want to hear. You know, just to go back to the age of 12, that's like the last thing you want to hear. You're not like everybody else. And she saw, I think she saw my face blanch in fear. And she looked at me, she said, that's good. She said, people in meetings aren't going to understand how you got there. And that's where you get ‘em, by bringing something different to the table. And she put that in my head, maybe at around the age of 24, 25. And it, it slowly took root, the more I showed myself, the more I added value, the more my magic got to come through. And those differences made an impact. But you know, it's slow. So we teach people how to take steps, you know, this isn't about changing the world overnight, whether it's your external world or your internal world. It's about small steps, and continued movement to make that happen, but I can't imagine and I know, this is not the case for everybody, I'm going to be 58 In two weeks, I cannot imagine what it would be like to not be able to be my full self in my work. And that's not the norm for everybody. And if everybody could just get a little bit more of that. I think the work would be so much better. Scott Rutherford So what have you seen the impact of these workshops in an organization over the over the because, as you just said, this is work that doesn't happen to start to finish the two hour workshop? Take me through, okay, well, you have to start you start somewhere, you open the door, you start having some awkward conversations, give folks some tools and perspectives they can use. You come back to that, do you do you revisit it? What's the what's the change look like? Over time? How do you how do you see that play out? Ken De Loreto Well, I mean, you know, we can go to the 70-20-10 rule here. And just for those who know what that is, it's simply saying that most of what we learn doesn't happen in classrooms. So I think of classroom work and courses like this as amazing triggers really important triggers for additional things to be happening. So we've got clients, we're doing some beautiful work on the 70% and the 20%. To surround the courses, to continue the conversation, whether that be employee resource groups, and or, you know, regular sort of coffee talk sessions, where they're getting whoever wants to come to talk about a topic, I've got one, I doing some pro bono work for a school district, and they are teaching there. Certain students who have signed up and raised their hands to lead discussion groups about these sorts of heated topics, like what they did one on the divisiveness of the of the 2020 election, and racism and how it appears in the school system, I mean, really heated topics, but it's to create conversation. And we also don't recommend one of the places in any of you who read the opinion piece on diversity training in the New York Times of a while ago. You know, we don't recommend that this be like sexual harassment training that be required, and you push everyone through it, that this be a poll. So you may end up starting with those who are already inclined to believe that diversity, inclusion, equity and belonging are important, that's fine. Start there. And then continue and broaden the conversation in a variety of ways. We have another client who does a beautiful podcast series, where they get employees to talk about their experience, relative to a particular facet of D IB. And just hearing those stories, I don't want to talk myself out of my work, because my work is about the courses. But they do so much to create a conversation, to get senior leaders having that conversation to have it think about to have them think about how it informs hiring and recruitment and promotions, et cetera, et cetera. But it's, you know, it took a while to get where we are, and it's gonna take a while to get someplace else. Scott Rutherford I think the 70-20-10 framework really does make sense here. In the 10%, the classroom aspect, you're describing where the guardrails are, yeah, and saying – well, it's okay to talk about this. Obviously, there are certain lines you don't want to cross in terms of in terms of, you know, being grossly inappropriate, and I think, I hope, we all know where those are. But it's okay to talk about the notion that there are, privilege exists, and it manifests in different ways. And that individual experiences differ. So, you know, that sets up, right, that sets up that informal activation that you're just talking about. Ken De Loreto Yeah. And it creates, it creates permission for the conversation. And a lot of what we try to do in the curriculum again, is it, it is not our job to help learners in a course think about how to change their organization, that's a big task. what our job is, is to help learners understand how they can improve their own experience their own world. And for instance, with Ally ship their own actions, to make a difference. We even in the facilitator notes, if you were to look at them right up front, in the advanced preparation for the facilitators leading it, we advise that in each course, they prepare to continually guide participants back to their own choices and experience, yes, the organization has work to do, and is doing that work. But that is separate and distinct from what each of us can be doing. To help belonging to to take root, or it for people to be heard at cetera, et cetera, it's got to start somewhere. And some use that as an excuse, well, my leaders aren't doing it. Well, they're not doing it over. Really. So just because you had bad parents, you're gonna parent your, your kids poorly, you're telling me that just because it's not happening around you, because others in your neighborhood aren't mowing their lawn, you're not going to mow your lawn, even though you know, it looks better. Scott Rutherford It's also that, you know, if you're in an organization, and this work isn't happening, you know, I remember back, you know, work to work for a division of Thomson – Thomson Corporation before the Thomson Reuters merger – so that’s going back a little ways, but conversation that we had at the time was we wanted to be the “employer of choice.” I recognize we’re in a very different economic cycle right now. But in depending on what type of industry you're in, you may be in the upswing or downswing of a hiring cycle. But what we all know is that sooner or later, you're competing with your competition for talent. Yes. And so if we are within a corporation, a company, a organization, they not doing the work, and we want to attract people who care about that work. We're creating competitive disadvantage for ourselves. Ken De Loreto And there are some organizations who do it really well. You know, one of my one of my clients now for 18 years, L'Oreal, for example, I think does it really well, where they welcome. And they actually recruit for unique different perspectives and experiences, but a love of beauty. So people who are from the arts and people who are from business, and people who are scientists all coming together to bring their unique perspective, for one sole reason to your point, Scott, which is to be the number one beauty company in the world. But that is not how every organization has approached up to this point. It's been about do you look like me? Do you come from the same school? Do you come from the same area perspective thought process, and we end up with a disadvantage. Scott Rutherford And we're there building that notion of sameness, as you said, we were wired to, to find the same, you know, what ties us together? And if what ties us together is the mission of the organization, isn't that the North Star, that's if we're aligned on mission, then we can let everything else fall away? Ken De Loreto Well, you know, it's so funny I was I was having this conversation with someone the other day, they were talking about two parts of their organization that are not getting along. And the old adage of, to align warring groups, warring tribes, you know, galvanize them around a common foe, or as what you just said, galvanize them around a common aspirational goal. It works, you know, that is how we, we do it, but we are designed to see differences and that that gets to be problematic. So if we can just recognize that we are all aiming for the same thing. It makes it easier or just to reflect on your own experience of having felt at certain points that you don't belong, or that you were on the outside and to remember what that feels like. And to make choices to to try to help that happen less for yourself and for others, you know, use the word sort of, you know, moral you know, it's like it's morally and ethically correct, but in the at the end of the day, it just feels better. At least it does to me. Scott Rutherford Thank you once again to Ken De Loreto, learning consultant with Zeiberg Consulting and the developer of a catalog diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging workshops. We'll have links to some of the articles mentioned in this episode on the episode page, axiomlearningsolutions.com/podcast, and a link to some of the workshops Ken De Loreto designed, also available at axiomlearningsolutions.com/catalog. This podcast is a production of AXIOM Learning Solutions. AXIOM is a learning services company that provides learning teams with the people and resources needed to accomplish virtually any learning project or objective including on demand learning professionals to work alongside your team, and complete learning content or project outsourcing. If you'd like to discuss how AXIOM can support your learning team and your goals. You can contact us at axiomlearningsolutions.com. Thanks once again for listening to the AXIOM Insights Podcast.